A lot of times, what we feel with this therapy is the change in hormone levels. I've found that those are far more evident than the steady state condition of constant testosterone levels. If you feel strong when you work out, have a decent libido and night time tumescence, then you're probably doing ok. But, I would suggest that you cut back on your work hours, get more sleep, and you need to do a lot of stretching exercises for your arms. I've had numb arms and it's from tight muscles and pinched nerves. It looks like you're just running yourself into the ground. Life is a marathon, not a sprint.

All true. I used to fly freight and teach flying. Your inner ear sense acceleration and deceleration but not constant unchanging speed. I have to stop myself and say 'your just getting used to it again, think back to how you used to feel'.

yes daughter is asleep and I got back up work some more at 12:30 because?

I actually thought about going downstairs and deadlifting.

Phenibut, lean dreams, melatonin - and I am wide awake.

I am really tempted to put a hot tub out back facing the openspace, good before lifting, good before bed....I think. This life is still far and away better then how I used to approach divorced life, drinking until I fell asleep.

But your right I can do better, after tomorrows lift I am putting on the NFL Network and just lie on the sofa all day, super-bown sunday - I never do that.

It sounds like you are in a situation where your stress is keeping you awake at night. You can't relax because of the adrenal rush from the stress. What I have done in this situation is take drugs to knock me out. What you can try is two ibuprophen and two Benedryl before bed. This should knock you out for a while at least. I would not make this into a habit though. I used to take two tylenol and two Benedryl before bed each night until I read about how this is bad for me. If you need something longer term, see a doctor.

Well, I can say that after being on Testim for about 4 months, my testicles have shrunk. I've used PP's PCT recovery stack fairly consistently also, as well as the occasional Dermacine. I also take nettle root extract. I have not done a blood test since I started. I know, I need to do that, but it's not cheap either and my insurance doesn't cover it. I don't think I take anything else that would dramatically impact my hormones though. One thing I do that the makers of Testim say not to do is apply the gel to my genitals. Sometimes it stings and sometimes not, but I've gotten used to it. I don't apply all of it of course, just some of it. The rest of the little tube goes on my shoulders, neck, chest and upper back. The makers of the testosterone creams recommend application to the genitals. Also, in Europe the use a DHT cream that goes straight on the genitals also. So, I don't know if what I'm doing has caused testicular shrinkage or if it's just the Testim itself. Without testing I don't really know, but it appears that I'm not producing very much of my own testosterone any more. I tried a testosterone cream once and it caused the same thing to happen. I'm not worried since I'm not interested in having children any more.

Testicular atrophy while on TRT can be treated with hCG injections. Typical dose is 250 IU 2x/week.

- Dan

If your primary (which I am) HCG will be useless.


How do you guys on the creams stand the stuff? I tried androgel and testim, nothing works better than one shot a week I/M.

I use a compounded gel 100mg/ml testosterone applied to the boys once a day.
With the gels your T levels are stable day to day. When taking the shots your blood values peak at48-72 hours then continue to drop till the next shot. And with the gels quite often you get a much higher dht level then you will with the shots, so libido can be higher.
I also use HCG 250iu injected SC every three days.

Well, it's not useless unless your testes are completely burned out raisins and produce no T whatsoever, which is highly unusual. If your testes can generate enough T to give you an endogenous level of 100, or 200, or whatever, hCG will maintain that and prevent testicular atrophy in the process.


AndroGel is no big deal. Every AM after you shower and dry off, you apply it and that's it. It dries in seconds while being rubbed in. Needless to say, the daily topicals mimic the natural diurnal cycle of endogenous T, which many endocrinologists and urologists prefer.

- Dan

I did prefer androgel over testim, that's for sure. But using the lotion every day became tiresome and annoying. sometimes I just needed to hurry up and get to work. I guess it depends on the person. I much prefer one shot a week that gives me 1100-1500 peak levels, vs 400-700 levels.

The topical delivery vehicle of AndroGel and Testim are somewhat different, in that the latter uses pentadecalactone which enhances transdermal absorption of T but also has a characteristic odor and sticky residue to it.

This journal article...

Safety and efficacy of testosterone gel in the treatment of male hypogonadism

...has a decent review of the situation:

While it is true that weekly T injections give a higher initial peak when compared with daily transdermal TRT, there is also a deeper trough (i.e. lowest levels) the day before the next injection. The only way to determine exactly how low that trough is for any individual guy is to do labwork on that day and assay what the Total/Free-T levels are.

- Dan

Maybe I am just lucky. I always get my labs done 6 days post last shot, which is one day before my next shot, and I've never tested below 1000. But I am also on 200mgs of test c a week.

Great info Dan, thank u

Can these be self administered, or would I have to go see a technician twice per week? Also, is HCG expensive? I'm not sure my insurance will cover it. It does cover Testim though.

Also, what's up with all the hCG stuff for weight loss? Is this this same stuff I need? They don't ask for prescriptions, which is strange to me. I don't mean to derail this thread though, so if you or anyone knows of a place where I can read about, that'd be great.

My insurance does not cover hcg, and it a pain in the butt to get. I have to go to a compounding pharmacy to get it. So it was much easier for me to go through alldaychemist.com and get it legally. It is DIRT cheap.

However, I found out I am primary so I won't really use it nemore.

You can do the injections at home.
The cost of HCG is about $40.00 a month without insurance.
There are several instruction videos on YouTube that show you how to mix and inject the HCG.
I will try and find a link to one.

What I don't understand is that this stuff seems to be available without a prescription. There's a ton of stuff about something called the "hCG protocol" for loosing weight. They order it from overseas. What's the deal with that?

it's called a "grey area"

It's not a scheduled drug in the US

You inject it yourself, using a insulin-type syringe with a fine needle. HCG isn't all that expensive, certainly when compared with Testim. HCG is typically supplied in a kit that contains 10,000 IU of hCG as a lyophilized powder in one vial, and a vial of bacteriostatic water for dilution. Once diluted, the hCG remains stable for at least 60 days refrigerated. The usual dosing to prevent testicular atrophy is 250 IU IM or SC 2x/week (500 IU per week total), so the reconstituted vial will expire before you even use it all up. Many insurance plans cover hCG... I know mine does.


Put most succinctly, the hCG diet is a complete crock of shit which was first concocted over 60 years ago. If you go on any diet where your caloric intake is restricted to around 500 kcal/day, i.e. essentially near starvation, you're going to lose weight. Unfortunately a lot of that is going to be from catabolizing muscle, not fat, and you're going to feel like crap, have no energy, etc.

Needless to say, when the "hCG diet" was compared to the same diet but with a placebo rather than hCG, the weight loss was the same. Read this article for more information: HCG diet was largely discredited long ago - latimes.com

- Dan

OK, thanks. I read up on hCG side effects and other things and it seems very safe for a 50 yr old male like me. What isn't clear to me is what would happen if I used the recommended dosage for the hCG protocol, which is at least 125 IU per day? I wonder what happens to the people who do more? Do the men walk around with baseballs between their legs? <g>

Yeah, I think it is obvious that trying to survive on 500 kcal/day is going to cause weight loss no matter what else someone does! I read their protocol and thought that immediately. I wonder what kind of hormone profile people on this protocol have when they are taking 150-200 IU of hCG per day? The women must have progesterone through the roof and the men must have high testosterone. Maybe there's some kind of limiting factor that I'm not aware of though with this stuff. I can see how someone might think that boosting androgens like this would lead to weight loss, but I know it has been shown to not be effective for that.

IMO you would benefit from using 250iu every three days.
For a 50 year old male this would be the standard protocol for HCG.

No you won't develop Elephantitis of the balls from doing more