Coenzyme Q10

man doc, you really seem to be anti supplement. Sorry bro, but its your industry who finds it better to treat peoples symptoms rather than cure them. Keeping people sick is good money for you bros.

My trust for the medical community VERY low. from very personal experience.

also...

Linus Pauling Institute at Oregon State University

ScienceDirect - Clinical Biochemistry : Coenzyme Q10 concentrations in coronary artery disease

Effect of coenzyme Q10 administration on endotheli... [Eur Heart J. 2007] - PubMed result

SpringerLink - Journal Article

That's a pretty silly comment to make about a guy who's logging his use of several of PP's products right now.

Sorry, but you had a bad experience with a doctor or 3 (or 12) and so you figure the whole medical community sucks? Where's the sense in that? The medical community in the US has a very good track record where it really matters. Survival rates here are the highest in the world for pretty much any disease/condition you might encounter.

Or think of it this way: Would it be fair to judge the entire supplement community based on what MuscleTech does?

Lou

I was referring to many of the comments he makes about them and the industry. Saying "no solid studies have been done on this" when yes... yes they have. Or saying they should be more regulated... cause you know.. thats just what you need... or can you just not wait for the day you have to go to the doctor to get some DHEA, and it cost you $250 for a months supply if you dont have insurance.


Its not just my experiences, multiple, its based on the systems on which they act. and no... its not every healthcare provider. But the system in general. there are some providers out there who care about the patients, but a sad majority care about their income first. The pharmaceutical companies who give them nice bonuses for prescribing the latest medication, without regard for the fact that prescribing a Zpack for a simple infection might not be the best course of treatment and its better to start with the basics... you know, so as to prevent Antibiotic resistance? or treating symptoms because as i said... big pharma makes more money off of you being chronically ill than they do keeping you healthy. Its just good business... but bad practice.

You want studies on pomagranite, google them, there are literally tons of humans studies done. Even are very own Primordial performance did an article on it. Speaking of cholesterol, there was a study done, which showed, RED Yeast rice worked better or equal to any cholesterol lowering statin.

if supplements didn't work for such things as blood pressure, cholesterol, heart health etc.... why do so many bodybuilders take them, ie... howthorne berry, celery seed extract, red yeast rice, pomagranite extract, ....., cause they work.

heres a few involving pomegranate and CAD

Elsevier

Elsevier

Elsevier

Elsevier

[QUOTE=mrrobrage;27678]I was referring to many of the comments he makes about them and the industry. Saying "no solid studies have been done on this" when yes... yes they have. Or saying they should be more regulated... cause you know.. thats just what you need... or can you just not wait for the day you have to go to the doctor to get some DHEA, and it cost you $250 for a months supply if you dont have insurance.


Dan is probably saying that 1 reason because there are so many kids out there purchasing this stuff, not doing any research then having to go to the dr and make them fix the problem. research is a must before doing any type of sup, but many chose not to

robert

[QUOTE=adcrobertb;27688] Quote:
Originally Posted by believer
If you don't know how to get SERMS, you haven't been around long enough and probably aren't ready to do a cycle of Superdrone..

...and people wonder why I advocate the notion of medically supervised performance enhancement.

- Dan

I don't see where this statement includes every supplement for sale OTC.

Maybe because they don't have access to those prescription medications, or don't feel like paying for them. Quite frankly, I don't give a shit what bodybuilders use or don't use; I'm talking about clinical trials with extremely large numbers of patients enrolled which show a definite benefit of certain medications. Why the hell should I take hawthorn berry extract, RYR, etc. when I have access to REAL medications that are pharmaceutical grade, of precise dosages, have tons of studies behind them, and are known to work very well?

- Dan

None of the studies you cited shows equivalency or superiority of pomegranate juice or extract to statin therapy.

I never said that pomegranate juice does nothing; what I said is that there are no head-to-head studies which show that pomegranate juice is equivalent or superior to statins in terms of cardiovascular endpoints. Until such research is done, the standard of care is statin therapy. That's the way evidence-based treatment works in medicine.

- Dan

lets say both statins and supplements work pretty much equal. getting a prescription is a big pain in the ass. you have to make time to see a dr. he writes the prescription, you'd think he'd just write a prescription that lasts. of course not, every few months it runs out. and the dr wants to see you again. forget that. id much rather not depend on dr's and the government for my things. getting supplements is like getting a gallon of milk. thats how i like it. fast and simple.

Man i love when a thread takes off and ppl get down to business. I just started taking 100mg/daily of coq-10 with my cycle assist and in four days i start my Havoc, i am pumped. i will run the coq-10 clear through pct. then i will start my Tribulus/ZMA stack with Red Yeast Rice/Coq-10/Niacin for about 3solid months then have all my Labs drawn again.

If I recall correct... in order to perform a proper clinical study on an existing drug you need permission of the drug company and the FDA. Not going to happen in this case, they would have too much to lose....

Yes, that's certainly a significant part of the problem.

However, I think eventually there is going to be a legal redefinition of what constitutes a "nutritional supplement" in the US. Let's face it, it's really hard to argue that PHs and DSs fit into that category. I'm not saying that I approve of such a change per se, but rather that it is not going to surprise me if and when it happens.

- Dan

but there have been clinical trials on these.
and to be fair... and yes some of the things we take can have bad sides (i.e. our pro-steroids, which we only take for the most part because of the legal hassle in the old versions) but as far as the actually natural stuff like C0Q10, hawthorn etc, if both are effective i would rather take them than a pharma grade chemical that will have worse sides.

as far as red yeast rice "in 2001 red yeast rice extract, a "natural" unregulated nutritional supplement was withdrawn by the FDA when it was determined that red yeast rice supplements were too similar in chemical structure to the strictly regulated prescription statin known as Mevocor. In fact, red yeast rice is almost identical to lovastatin, which is the key ingredient in the statin drug Mevacor."
Which is a reason i dont use it unless needed... and then in low doses for short periods... they have the same sides

The Major Side Effects of Statin Drugs
Nausea
Irritability and short tempers
Hostility
Homicidal impulses
Rapid loss of mental clarity
Amnesia
Kidney failure
Diarrhea
Muscle aching and weakness
Tingling or cramping in the legs
Inability to walk
Problems sleeping
Constipation
Impaired muscle formation
Erectile dysfunction
Temperature regulation problems
Nerve damage
Mental confusion
Liver damage and abnormalities
Neuropathy
Destruction of CoQ10, a vital nutrient for health

RYR:
Headache
Indigestion
Bloating and gas
Dizziness
Heartburn
Muscle pain
Joint pain
Liver inflammation
Damage to peripheral nerves

now in comparison...

Hawthorne:
transient cases of
mild rash,
headache,
sweating,
dizziness,
sleepiness,
agitation,
and gastrointestinal symptoms

CoQ10
transient cases of
rashes,
nausea,
upper abdominal pain,
dizziness,
sensitivity to light,
irritability,
headache,
heartburn,
and fatigue.


Policosanol:
is well tolerated and safe in a study of 4596 patients. No serious adverse nor side effects were reported

Lets also note that if i go to the hospital for cholestasis... they are going to give me NAC, which i have a big bulk bad of in my kitchen

Let's NOT say that both statins and supplements work pretty much equal, because there's no proof that supplements are equal or better to statins.

As far as refills of prescriptions, that depends on your doctor. My cardiologist writes me for three month supplies of all my meds with three refills, i.e. an entire year, even though I see him every 3-4 months. Same thing for my urologist and the Androgel.

- Dan

You don't need the permission of either if the drug is already approved for use. Thus, there is no such impediment to comparing a generally available statin with a supplement, e.g. Crestor versus pomegranate juice. Also note that some supplements are also available as prescription medications, e.g. niacin (Niaspan) and O3FOs (Lovaza).

- Dan

The reality of the situation is that the vast majority of people tolerate statins very well, and the most common side-effect, which is leg cramping, is usually alleviated by CoQ10. Yeah, you can get elevated LFTs with statins, but you can also get that with niacin, which is technically a nutritional supplement.

- Dan