I just got back from getting my E2 tested.
I am off work today, and there was no waiting line at the blood draw place.
I will be taking my wife and son to a Water Park nearby today, when it opens in a bit.

I also picked up some bacteria for the stomach Dan told me about Friday when we were discussing a source of gear I had found.

They did not have the brand Dan recommended (Ultra Jaro-dophilulus), but I got a similar brand to try out. If I am able to discern a difference by taking it, I will report out on it.

Keith

Just got back from Sunsplash with my son (my wife ended up not going).

Only there about 3 hours, but that was enough.
Having raised a daughter and step daugter previously, some of these activities get pretty old for me, but I still try to do them for my son.

I have been to Disneyland/Disneyworld 8 times, for instance.
With my son only 9, and grandchildren ahead at some point, I am sure I will end up going there several more times before I kick the bucket.

I was certainly much less buoyant at Sunsplash this time, having gone there last almost a full year ago.

There were only 2 other guys there I saw with better physiques than me, and their combined age was still less than mine.

That made me feel pretty good, and I like to show off the physique I have worked so hard for.

Keith

Cycle 2, Day 55 7/29/10 Back, Biceps, Forearms – 22 sets (Back 12, Biceps 7, Forearm 3)

Tried out the new lat pulldown machine I bought, so did 3 sets on it rather than the normal 2.
The guide bars have some rust on them, which I need to sandpaper off, and I also need to add some WD40.
So, the action was a bit rough today, but I will get that all fixed over the weekend.

My elbows were feeling a little wonky, so did pullups again instead of weighted chinups.

• A: Pullups (with weighted vest +20#), 3 sets (24, 22, 20)
• A: Wide Pull Down, (palms facing away) 3 sets 115# (12,11, 12) New Baseline, new lat machine
• B: Pushup position 1-arm DB Row, 3 sets 62.5# (20) 72.5# (20), 70# (20)
• DB Shoulder Shrug, 3 sets 102.5# DBs (28, 27, 27)
• A: Preacher Curl: 4 sets, 110# (18, 17, 15, 15) (+5#, -12 reps)
• B: Hammer Curl, 3 sets 47.5# DB’s (15, 13, 13) (+2.5#, -4 reps)
• Zottman Curl 2 sets 27.5# (17, 17) (+2.5#, -2 reps/set)
• Forearm Flexion 60# DBs, 1 set (20)

E2 Results

I got my E2 results back today, and they are scary.
E2 is 115.1!!

I had my E2 tested on 6/26, and it was 111.2
I bumped letro up to 1.5 2.5mg tabs/week.

On 7/10, E2 was tested again, and was 69.4.
I figured ok, better, so I bumped my letro up to 2 tabs/week AND reduced my Test from 600mg/week to 450mg.

Problem solved, right?

Wrong!
I am absolutely shocked at these numbers, but they explain alot, as I have felt very emotional, haven't felt aggressive in the gym or done very well in the gym, etc.


I am not sure what the solution is.
I had been taking .5 letro pills 4x/week, but took a whole pill yesterday after my test.
I am thinking I need to take a whole pill today, tomorrow, and Sunday, and go to 3.5 pills/week for the balance of the cycle (and probably the week after).

Thoughts?

Keith

Wow... very weird.

Possible explanations include:

1. Fast aromatization due to excess aromatase production and/or an isoform that confers rapid conversion. This would be a genetic variation which you had all your life, but is only really expressing itself with high doses of T.

2. An aromatase isoform which has a slightly modified T receptor which has lower affinity for AIs such as letrozole. Again, this would be a genetic variation which you had all your life.

The question is how to treat this. Clearly you may have to go on a full dose of letro for a short period of time to squelch that high E2 relatively quickly. Another possibility is to use Exemestane (Aromasin) instead of letrozole, which has a different mechanism of action. Lastly, you simply may need to lower your dose of T further, and use primarily non-aromatizing agents for cycles in the future.

Of course, you're going to have to follow this closely with blood work.

- Dan

Dan:
Thanks, and thank goodness for labs.
I knew my E2 was high, due to several symptoms, but I was guessing it was much closer to the 69.4 it was on 7/10 than the 115.1 on 7/29.

Keith

Do you have any E2 labs from before you went on TRT or after TRT but not on-cycle?

It would be helpful to see if your E2 level was elevated even then.

Hmmm, I guess another possibility is one of your supplements either enhancing the speed of aromatization or blocking the effects of letrozole on aromatase... although I can't imagine what supp would actually do that.

- Dan

Yes, I had my E2 tested in November 25th, 2009, when I was on only 120mg test/week.
The level was 43.6 then, which is still high, but not crazy high.

I started using a lot of formestane after that, and I "seemed" to feel my E2 levels were better after, but did not follow up with tests.

I figure I will get the E2 tested in a couple weeks, then go off cycle and go to a low dose of letro, with Test coming from Androgel, and get the E2 tested again.

Like I said before, though, thank God for access to labwork when needed so I can "fix" these problems before they cause me some long term problems.

With all the money I spend on my special "supplements", what is a little more to make sure I am not damaging myself in ways only bloodwork could pick up?

Keith

Cycle 3, Day 56 7/30/10 Legs and Abs, 24 sets

I have still been feeling pretty unmotivated in the gym, as I am still waiting for my E2 levels to come down.

The high E2 seems to have really negatively affected my libido, as well.
I just don't even seem to be turned on by any of the women at work anymore, let alone my wife.

So far this cycle, much of the extra Test I have been taking has just aromatized.
So, I am both wasting that and offsetting the drive/aggression from the other agent.
I will need to be much more creative next cycle.

For a leg workout, I did not do particularly well, and I dawdled around a lot before actually starting the workout.

• Torso Twist 4 sets (Bowflex) 140# (22, 22) 150# (22. 22) (+5#)
• Squats, 4 sets (335#) ( 22, 22, 22, 22) (+10#)
• Hanging Leg Raises, 4 sets 27, 26, 26, 26 (+1 rep)
• Seated Ab Crunches, 4 sets (410#) (Bowflex) (40, 40, 40, 40)
• Inverted Leg Press, 4 sets 515# (30, 26, 26, 24)
• Inverted Calf Raises, 4 sets 485# (30, 29, 28, 28)

Cycle 3, Day 57, 7/31/10 Chest, Triceps, Shoulders – 27 sets (Chest 11, tri 7, Shoulders 9)

I felt pretty tired most of the day, and had both a sinus headache and clogged sinuses.

I did do 20 minutes of cardio in the early afternoon prior to my workout (exercise bike).

I also finished the book, "Dexter is Delicious".
The storyline in the book is darker than the Showtime version, and there are differences in the plot.
Deb knows Dex is a Serial killer, Brian Moser is still alive (Dex's brother) while Laguerta is not, Doakes is alive (but partially dismembered), and Cody and Astor are Serial killers in training.

Unfortunately, my workout was not as good as the book, and the workout was pretty lousy except for my tricep exercises.
Hopefully, I can get my hormones back in synch and push forward soon, as I am slipping a bit now.

• Decline Bench Press, 4 sets 80# DBs (18, 18, 17, 17)
• Incline Bench Press (45 degrees), 4 sets 72.5# DBs (22, 18, 18,18) (-2 reps)
• (A workout) Chest Fly, 3 sets (Bowflex) 350# (23, 23, 21) (-1 rep)
• Triceps Rope Pushdown, 3 sets (Bowflex) 250# (24, 24) (+10#) 260# (24) (+10#, -2 reps)
• Triceps Dips Body weight +20# (22, 21, 20, 20) (+2 reps)
• (B workout) DB Arnold Press, 4 sets 52.5# DBs (20, 16) (-2 reps) 52.5# DBs (16, 15) (+2.5#, -4 reps)
• A: Reverse DB flyes 3 sets 50# DBs (13, 13, 14) (+2.5#, -17 reps)
• Superset of:
o Front Shoulder Raise, 1 sets 27.5# (19)
o Lateral Shoulder Raise, 1 sets 27.5# (19)

Keith

Keith it sounds like you are experiencing Exercise Burnout, everyone who trains hard for long periods of time will get it.

Take a week off, from training, let your body and mind recover and heal.
During the week off enjoy eating some comfort foods, go see a movie, do anything except workout.
Don't worry, in one week you won't lose all your hard earned gains, you won't put on 10 pounds of fat.
I guarantee you after a week off you will come back refreshed with a new found commitment to working out.
Your body and mind will thank you for doing this.

Know the Warning Signs
Knowing the warning signs of exercise burnout can go a long way in helping you recognize if this phenomenon is affecting your performance. Some of the physical and emotional signs of over training include:

•Decreased performance: This usually means that you feel unable to go as far as you used to or that you can’t go as fast as you’d like.
•Loss of coordination: It may sound scary, and if you’re on a fast moving machine, it can be even scarier. If your feet or hands are not cooperating, then exercise burn out may be to blame.
•Prolonged recovery: When you do have an injury, does it seem to take a long time for you to recover (beyond the accepted recovery time)?
•Elevated morning heart rate: Having an elevated morning heart rate is a surprising side effect of overtraining.
•Headaches: Take note if you’re having frequent headaches.
•Loss of appetite: While it may sound counter-intuitive, a sustained loss of appetite may be reason for concern.
•Chronic muscle soreness: When you train, you expect to sustain a reasonable amount of muscle soreness the day after, but the key to this symptom is the word “chronic”. You should not have chronic soreness. In fact, if anything, your workouts should feel easier as you progress.

Rick:
I do plan on taking a week off after this cycle is done. Thanks.

I am not having any chronic soreness, loss of appetite, prolonged recovery, loss or coordination, or frequent headaches (The headaches diminished greatly after I donated blood).

I think there is more to my performance lately than just burnout, and it is the crazy high E2 levels that are lowering my motivation, wasting much of the Test I am injecting, and over offsetting the tren aggession.

Keith

Keith

Ok, here are the current pictures of me on this cycle, which will be over in a couple of weeks.

I weighed myself today at 184, up 3 pounds since the cycle began.

All of the weight gain seems to be in the legs, which are noticeably more muscular than before.
Unfortunately, I did not measure my legs or take pictures of them prior to the cycle.

For the upper body, I have lost a tad of fat and added only a tad of muscle.
My 32 inch pants are noticeably looser now than they were at the beginning of the cycle.

I would appreciate any constructive comments regarding changes in training emphasis based on these pictures:

Front View:


Back View:


Vascularity of arm:


Keith

Ok, I just pinned myself again.
I am lowering my Test injections to 300mg/week.
I started at 600mg/wk, lowered it to 450mg/week, and lowering it again due to E2 levels of 115 even after taking 2 pills/week of letro.
I took a full pill of letro Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and am about to take one now. 4 pills in 4 days should knock this down.
I will take 3 more pills this week, and get my E2 tested Saturday (maybe my test levels too).
By the time I get this tweaked right, my cycle will probably be over, but this is good information to have going forward for future cycles.

Keith

8/1/10 Sunday, Off Day

I hauled my lazy butt out to the 4.5 mile Peralta trail, to do some much needed cardio in the form of hiking.
Time to the top was 59 minutes, which is close to normal for me.

I think all the letro is working to get my E2 down, as I got very mad at my wife today today, and have been irritated with her for most of the day.
The last several days, all I have been thinking of is holding her, so I am glad this namby-pamby stuff is wearing off, and I am feeling more like myself.

I had a LOT more energy today, despite having trouble sleeping yesterday, so that is a good sign too.

Keith

Seriously,
I would highly suggest next time on cycle to stay away from taking all the Test Boosters!

Natural or not the "everything but the kitchen sink" products designed to boost test do more harm than good when taken with AAS. My belief is that you have created a firestorm of confusion in your body and the anabolic platform by which your cycle is supposed to launch off of. Instead your body has decided to create more E2. Think about that for a moment,..why do you think that is? Could it be that you have so many test boosting agents and ant-estrogen agents rifling through your body that your positive feedback and negative feedback mechanisms are all in a angry hornets nest? Yes that is exactly why. OVERKILL! Most common mistake is taking for granted a liver friendly supplement which is designed to boost test and block estrogen. It can set the stage for one awful time for your body. Defense mechanisms remain supreme as E2, cortisol, progesterone all take aim on your hard earned gains. I know what you were thinking- "If I Keep my body's signals for natural test production in check and block estrogen while promoting a natural anabolic environment will help me gain more and feel better" Wrong! Your body chooses the easy way out and rides the less burdened path thus almost neutralizing the amazing potency of trenbolone and test by creating bursts of E2 that right now are so high that in order for you to see any more gains would take a miracle. You are in the in between stage where your body is going to determine real soon where it goes from here. Fix your E2 problem, start PCT, and throw away those useless test boosters! Fenugreek, Nettle Root, do not belong in a trenbolone cycle. Winstrol yes! But any anabolic matrix with tribulus, longjack, etc,...is a one way ticket to hormone suicide.
Your body has become so confused and put in a mayhem state all it knows is defense mechanisms right now. Your tren/test/ are getting minimum effects as E2 is stealing the thunder.

Bushdragon:
Thanks for the information.
I had figured the test boosters I was taking (fenugreek, Tribulus) would have a rather minimal effect, as the doses were not that high, but I may have been wrong.
Nettle root is supposed to be a VERY mild A.I., so I did not think that would really affect much.
I AM taking HCG 3x/week at 300 units/shot to keep the testicles functioning.
What is your recommendation of that on the cycle I am on?

I think the test boosting supplements I am taking are identical to what Dan takes (N1 T, Anabolic Matrix, Fenugreek), but I think I am just aromatizing at a much higher level than he is for some reason.
(Dan, correct me if I am wrong here).

Next cycle, I plan on using a somewhat lower dose of test, and offset that lower level with non-test agents like Deca, Winny, Anavar, and maybe Tren LV or Tren E.

It's all about balance. Like I said you had too much going on. You should really educate yourself on the HPTA, and positive and negative feedback loops in the body which dictate how the body will respond to presence of test and estrogen. HCG at 300iu 3x a week would have been enough of a positive signal for the HPTA to signal testes and pituitary to create Lutenizing hormone thus creating natural test. But the test-boosters which do the same thing crossed up those signals- desensitizing your ability to keep HPTA somewhat on track. So your body responded with more E2. Using the Letrozole on top of the other anti-estrogens only confused matters too. It's not the fact that you used too high of a test dose. You added natual test boosters which caused your body to create more estrogen, freed up testosterone also converted to estrogen as your body became overwhelmed with estrogen- the letrozole was ineffective because it became a case of trying to fill to many holes and having not enough leverage or time to change things back into a balanced anabolic state. Your hormones are on a roller coaster and not consistent. This causes major sides and issues. The key is to find that balance and never adjust it or play with it. For your next cycle you are thinking of using non-estrogenic AAS and a lower test dosage. Again you are asking for trouble. You need a solid test base. You need a balance of androgenic and anabolic agents. All you did was downgrade your AR and allow estrogen to dominate. I suggest next cycle you truly understand deca, winstrol, trenbolone, anavar etc,...before you start up again. All these AAS have completely different make-ups and when you put a cycle together you want to make sure that there is a synergy. In your latest cycle you had a lack of synergy which can compared to form doing exercises. If the form is wrong the wrong muscles groups work as the targeted ones get left out of the picture. In this case all your powerhouse gear never reached its full potency because there was always something getting in the way. An all out traffic jam of androgens and anti-estrogens trying to converge but going nowhere. Complete Mayhem.

Bushdragon:

Thanks for the additional information.
For my next cycle, I did not plan on just throwing a bunch of ingredients together, but was going to use a protocol that was given to me.
I had planned on reducing the test a bit, but you say that won't be necessary if I drop the other stuff.

This is the protocol that was given me.

Since you are much more knowledgeable than me on this, I would be interested in comments/suggested changes to this protocol:
Testosterone Cyp/Prop 200/50mg/ml 10ml
1/2 ml MIXED WITH 1 ml TEST PROP AND 1/2 ml NANDROLONE DEC AND 1 ml B-12 (MON & FRI)

Testosterone Prop 100mg/ml 10ml vial
1 ml MIXED WITH 2 ml B-12 (WED)

Nandrolone (Deca) 300mg/ml compound
1/2 ml MIXED WITH 1 ml TEST PROP AND 1/2 ml Test cyp/prop AND 1 ml B-12 (MON & FRI)

Cyanacobalamin 1000mcg/ml 30ml (B-12) (SEE ABOVE)

Stanozolol 50mg (WINNY)
(1 CAP EVERY DAY IN THE AFTERNOON)

Oxandrolone 50mg (Anavar) (1 CAP EVERY DAY IN THE MORNING)

This is supposed to be a 10 week cycle, although I only have a month's worth of the Winny and Anavar on hand.

Please let me know how long you would take these agents, and if the cycle should be of a different length, like 12 weeks.

Like I said, I thought maybe I should tone done the Test, but you said not to if I ditch the other natural test boosting stuff.

I HAD thought that I could add Tren E or Tren LV to this mix, so I would like your opinion on that, or anything else that should be added/deleted/tweaked.

I have a question for you on the test boosters as well.

Some of what I was taking was supposed to increase free test more than overall test, like the Stinging Nettle (Divanil).
You are saying that I should not do that either while on cycle at all, right?

For a cycle like this, with this amount of test, how much letro or other A.I. would you recommend?

Thanks for this information, Bushdragon.

Keith

Keith,
Everything looks good with the test cyp/Test Prop Nandrolone cycle. But to kick off your cycle you should add 50 mgs dianabol for the first 6 weeks.
Because you only have 1 month supply of anavar and winstrol. You have two choices you can low doses winstrol 20 mgs daily, and anavar 10 mgs daily and benefit from them for a longer period of time-
anavar- strength and fat burning, winstrol -cutting and lowering SHGB- and freeing up testosterone. So, there is no need for Divanil. Adding Tren E or Tren Lv would not be a smart idea since you already are running deca. 2 progestins would spell deca dick and tren dick. Winstrol which attaches to the progesterone receptor will help keep progesterone levels at bay while you are on Deca. As far as Letrozole 0.1 mg three times a week is still the protocol. As well as 0.5 mg of Cabergoline twice a week to keep prolactin levels low. Again, I implore you- STAY AWAY FROM TEST BOOSTERS ON CYCLE!
BUSHDRAGON