Primordial Performance: FDA seizure, going out of business, and the future

UPDATE Aug 24th, 2017: The trial ended today in San Jose CA. Unanimous jury Verdict — Not guilty on all charges. All steroid hormone products seized by the FDA in 2012 were found to be legal and compliant with federal regulations.

UPDATE Feb 4th, 2017: Please visit Botanical Craft for my latest project with Palm Fruit. This is a much improved version of Toco-8, and contains the highest level of tocotrienols and carotenoids of any product on the market. Palm Fruit is also available on Amazon.

 

Original post from Nov. 4th, 2012:
Updated Apr. 14th, 2015 (See bottom)

Customers (and creditors),

Forgive my delayed announcement on our business situation. Since the FDA raid Tuesday morning, I’ve been wrapped up in pressing matters, which I will explain below. I’m sitting here on minimal sleep, but will try to address this completely.

The facts are as follows –

The FDA raided our office/warehouse building in Portland OR at about 9:00am on Oct 30th. They had a search and seizure warrant for the following –

  1. AndroHard, AndroDrive, AndroMass, AndroLean, AndroBulk, AndroEnhance, Sustain Alpha gel, and DermaTherm gel. Including all raw materials for these products.
  2. All computers, digital storage devices, documents from 2006 until current.

There were about 30 armed FDA agents who entered through the front and back of the building with guns drawn. A majority of them were from LA. I have no idea why they had guns. No employees at our office have any history of violence or criminal history.

I received a call about the raid, and immediately went to the office. I asked to speak to the head agent(s), who were Jeff Novitzky and Hilary Rickher. Against the advice of others, I choose to speak to them without an attorney. I handed them our DSHEA statement, sat down and allowed them to question me for about 2 hours regarding the formulation, marketing, and manufacturing of our products. They did not detain or arrest anyone.

As of now, the affidavit for the warrant is sealed, so I am not entirely sure of the justification for the warrant. Based on the agents questioning, here are the major reasons Primordial Performance was targeted –

  1. TREN & Superdrone: The FDA is aware that we sold Tren in 2009 and Superdrone in 2010 for a very short period of time. We sold these products despite FDA warning that they may be unsafe. We deemed these products safe when used according to proper guidelines and suitable for sale given clear warning to consumers about potential side effects. We included this information on the labeling. As Primordial later determined in 2010, these hormones were not naturally occurring in the food supply, and thus would require an NDI to be sold as a dietary supplement. We were not compelled to submit an NDI, therefore we discontinued all methylated steroid hormones by the end of 2010. (to be replaced by naturally occurring unmethylated steroid hormone products called the “Androseries”)
  2. Secret ingredients: The FDA asked if there were any “secret ingredients” added to our products, so they seem to believe we add illegal or unlisted substances to our products. Apparently the FDA has also invested in extensive analytical testing of our products. Based on the limited information I have, they have been unable to find any “secret ingredients” in our products, nor will they ever find any evidence of this. What’s on the label is what we put into the product.
  3. Claims: Related to the AndroSeries products, the FDA had questions related to our claims regarding “AndroSeries equivalent to injectable testosterone.” This was the work of my colorful marketing side, but was substantiated with bio-equivalency calculations from peer-reviewed journal articles. According to the FDA, that statement is a drug claim, and thus the FDA considers AndroSeries marketed as an unapproved new drugs because of this claim. Most companies get warning letters about claims, but we never received any communication from the FDA until the raid.
  4. Ingredients: The FDA also seems to believe the AndroSeries products are “adulterated” because the ingredients are not present in the food supply, and thus, are not legal dietary ingredients. We have evidence that these hormones are naturally occurring in food, present in our bodies, natural human metabolites of DHEA (which is also a legal dietary ingredient), and thus are legal dietary ingredients. The FDA also believes that our doses are excessive, and not proven to be safe. We have evidence to show that our doses are very safe according to our human case studies.
  5. Topicals: They questioned the legal definition of the topical gel products. They seemed to believe we were selling them as dietary supplements. I informed them that they are sold as cosmetic products. The reason for these products being seized remains in question.
  6. GMP, ingredient origin, and other things: They also commented that synthetically manufactured ingredients (our hormones) are not dietary supplements, although 80% of the dietary supplement market comes from synthetically manufactured vitamins, amino-acids, etc. The FDA has also made accusations that our dose of active ingredients has been “inconsistent” between our batches. I am not sure of the origin of this claim. They also pointed out that our production workers were not wearing masks, and that we do not have a temperature controlled facility.

Admittedly, we have struggled to meet GMP guidelines since they became a requirement in June 2010. We started as a home based company in 2006 and moved to a 5000 sq ft facility in 2009, and hired laboratory staff to make efforts to meet GMP requirements. Meeting the multi-point analytical requirements, paper documentation, stability testing, facility upgrades, etc., is extremely expensive. We made a good faith effort to meet these requirements as much as our finances could afford.

As a side note, I feel empathy for the start-up who wants to produce and sell a legitimate dietary supplement in the US. The upfront investment to release a new product could easily be over $50,000 to meet minimum batch sizes required by GMP certified facilities. As of 2010 the law essentially requires manufacturers to use multi-million dollar equipment to test, analyze, verify, scan, pack, and store dietary supplements. The US government needs deregulation here, especially in this economy.

Speaking of the economy, the FDA must have spent over $2,000,000 for the investigation of Primordial Performance and its products (as can be gleaned from the number of agents and depth of the investigation). This seems like a tremendous waste of taxpayer dollars, especially when the FDA could have policed the situation with a simple warning letter.

Where does this leave Primordial products?

The FDA seized our inventory as evidence based on its opinion that these products are misbranded and adulterated. At this point, the products are not controlled substances, so they are not illegal to be in possession of. However the FDA has made it clear they don’t want us to distribute them.

If you are selling our AndroSeries products, I would advise against it at this current time, but there doesn’t appear to be any legal issue with possessing or consuming the products as an individual.

What happens now?

The FDA will now review our 5+ years of company records. They aren’t going to find anything more than what they already know. I really have no idea if they are going to press criminal charges, or if this will all be settled out of court. At this point there have been no criminal charges or arrests.

Again, the affidavit is sealed, so I am unable to see the evidence or reason for the seizure. As with any seizure, there is not much you can do to prevent the items from being seized, and any attempt to get the items back requires a claim to be filed, expensive attorneys, and lengthy court proceedings. The US court system does not move quickly.

Even if we go to court, and prevail in showing the products to be safe and legal dietary supplements, this process could take years. So if we win, we still lose.

Although we don’t have final numbers, it is estimated that the FDA seized up to $500,000k in inventory, valued at over $1,000,000 at its selling price.

From bad to worse

People seem to assume we have millions in the bank, but it couldn’t be further from the truth.

Primordial has been struggling financially for the past several years. We have about $300,000 in debt with various suppliers and creditors. Most of our business trouble was related to excessive overhead, inefficient operations, and employee turnover. Trying to fix these issues in a company is like trying to fix an engine while its running. Primordial has only had one slightly profitable year in the 6 years we’ve been in business. We always operated with very tight cash flow, with most of our cash tied up in inventory. None of the investors or shareholders have ever made any financial gain from Primordial, except for my $60,000/yr salary.

Since AndroSeries was about 80% of our revenue, and it is now gone, it essentially cuts us at the jugular. Before the FDA stepped in, we had a tight, but sustainable business. Now we have no money, no credit, and no inventory. It means doors closed for us.

What made our fall even more abrupt, was the fact that we had been behind on rent payments. We had a strict repayment plan to avoid eviction, but we won’t be able to follow through on those payments now. We will likely be getting locked out of our building by Nov 7th. Because of this, we decided to immediately make arrangements to clear the building and close shop.

The final days

As of 12/30/2012 all employees have been laid off and the final remaining inventory has been sold.

I might walk away with enough to live on for a few months after all payroll, moving, and storage expenses are paid. At this point Primordial nor myself have any income. I am actively seeking formulation/marketing contract work in the dietary supplement industry (non-andro of course). When I begin work for another company I will let you guys know.

Am I going to fight the FDA?

In many ways, I’m eager to have my day of reckoning with the FDA. This story deserves a good ending.

Is our position on the legal status of these ingredients strong enough to hold up in court? How about our safety data? Or our diligent effort to legitimize a safe and legal dietary steroid supplement?

Although I’m still recovering from a major ass kicking, the story of David and Goliath inspires me. I’ve always like fighting hardest when I’ve been the underdog. It’s FDA’s next move, so we will just have to see what happens.

Epilogue

Since I was 16 I’ve invested my life in the study, research, and development of hormone products. I did it for the fun of it. Its always been my personal passion to create something that could produce life changing results for people. The fact that we weren’t making any profit at PP really didn’t matter to me. The reward was the unsolicited letters of gratification from guys who discovered a greater life with our products. I loved creating hormone products, guys loved using them, and it was a great time.

I hadn’t been around much for the past 12 months. I’ve been quite captivated in my most recent work. I was confined in my small studio apartment constructing a plan for my next business. It was a complete male hormone solution, similar to Primordial Performance, but much improved. If this project every sees the light of day, it won’t be for several years.

I thank those who stood by until the very end here at the office, and those customers who maintained great loyalty over the years. I know if you could many of you would suit up and charge into battle. Maybe our day to rally will come.

Humbly & Respectfully,

-Eric Potratz
Primordial Founder & President

Update:

Here is a response to a couple myths I’ve heard over the last couple years:

Myth #1: The FDA raid never happened. Apparently, there is a rumor that the FDA raid was faked so Primordial could shut down and avoid payment of past-due taxes and debt. For the record, we had payment plans established for our debt, and were making an active recovery before the raid. The raid was very real, and the warrant can now be seen here.

Myth #2: The IRS shut down Primordial. Deborah Laughlin, the IRS Revenue Officer assigned to the Primordial account, had no idea about the FDA investigation. I realized this several weeks after the FDA raid when I had a meeting with her in Vancouver to let her know that Primordial was shutting down, and that we would no longer be able to make the payment plan on our past-due payroll taxes. The IRS had nothing to do with Primordial closing its doors.

UPDATE Feb. 4th, 2017: Please visit Botanical Craft for my latest project with Palm Fruit. This is a much improved version of Toco-8, and contains the highest level of tocotrienols and carotenoids of any product on the market. Palm Fruit is also available on Amazon.

UPDATE Aug 24th, 2017: The trial ended today in San Jose CA. Unanimous jury Verdict — Not guilty on all charges. All steroid hormone products seized by the FDA in 2012 were found to be legal and compliant with federal regulations.

62 thoughts on “Primordial Performance: FDA seizure, going out of business, and the future”

  1. I would be behind you guys 100% if you ever needed customers to testify in court or something.

    Is there any chance they will return your product eventually, once they realize there’s nothing wrong with it?

  2. I would be lieing if I said I didn’t get extremely sad while reading this. This company has been an amazing experience for me, and the employees, Eric included, were regarded as family by me. I would have done anything in my power for them, as I feel they have always done the same for me.

    Good luck Eric. Know that you have a friend for life, an I mean that with absolute sincerity. You passion to take things to the next level (even to the point of turning you into a hermit for the past year) will inspire me for years to come. I hope this situation ends as well as it can for you. It is sad in a country facing so many problems, we can have the Novitzky arm of the FDA continue to waste tax payer dollars on a personal use item.

    All the best,

    John

  3. If I win the lottery anytime soon I will reunite the O.J. defense team, dose them with the last of my stash of androdrive/androhard, and unleash them upon the great satan also known as the FDA. Until that moment arrives, please stay strong and know that you remain in the thoughts and prayers of myself and many others.

  4. I feel so sad to hear this… i also feel extreme rage…. Eric, your company has been very important to me, more than you can imagine, and i assure i am not the only one, we are a comunity and we will stay together until the end and you have all our support… i still remember the first day i came here and joined the forum and my first PP products…
    Since the day i decided to change my life for good after being sad and frustrated sedentary guy back in 2008 i struggled to change my habits and start my own discipline to follow my dreams of becoming the person i always wanted to be… i did everything i could, i took years of frustration, years of falling down, years of getting humilliated by myself and others, and million tears because i was never satisfied… my results came slowly, my dreams were breaking day by day, i thought i would never reach my goal…and i was also a victim of the liar companies selling supplements, companies that to this day the FDA does not regulate, but i will not talk about the FDA anymore, because i dont want to fill this post with trash…. anyways, my frustration started to fade the day i met primordial performance, the first products by primordial performance i tried actually worked!, i was surprised and also greateful, so i became a loyal customer since the day i tried your products…i started to gain confidence and life started to show more colorful, i fell in love with your products and the company. Eric you became an idol and a hero to me, i always admired the passion you put in every single product and referred your company to my friends everytime i could, not to mention the amazing things ive learned from you, all that changed my life for good, every single product i took from your company was an important piece to fulfill my dreams, and i am not only talking about my physique, but overall, as you and most guys looking for overall well being, we have found that a healthy body and a healthy mind are very important to us to be positive and that contributes to a better life that is a fact.

    i look back and compare myself to the person i was in 2008 and i cant thank you enough you and your company for helping me being satisfied now in 2012, so again thank you Eric and i wish you the best of luck in everything you do and i will pray for you and your company so this problem can be solved as soon as possible i still have faith. right now you are seeing the rain coming strong but remember that after the rain the sun shines, and thats a rule so just stay strong… until then you have this loyal customer supporting Primordial Performance with all his heart, God bless you brother.

    -Hector

  5. I am so sorry that this injustice is happening to you, Eric. Your company has had the best products I have ever used to mitigate the effects of stress in my life. Though there are similar things available on the market, I will miss them terribly. Your products truely are a step above everything else out there and are worth every penny. I am heart broken too, since I had been planning on making a major purchase after Christmas to stock up for the next year. I wish you luck in your battle against the FDA / thug/enforcement arm of the big pharma industry.

    David and Goliath is a fitting story for inspiration. God is not idle concerning the cause of justice. It is not just that you are penalized before being even charged or convicted, nor is it just to deny you due process by robbing you of your property at gunpoint before any such charges or convictions have taken place. I hope you will do all you can within your means to fight this. If they still deny you justice in this, it will stand as a witness against them, and they, themselves, will then be judged.

    I will keep you, your company, and our cause of bettering men’s lives and health, which is a just cause, in my prayers.

    Thank you for all you have done and will still do in the future.

  6. This is very unfortunate, the bright side is that no-one was injured or arreseted.

    If there is anything that can be done let us know.

  7. This is a testament to the continued efforts of the government to topple the working class. It seems in this time and age, the idea of creating a company designed to help, encourage, and inspire, those who need an extra push or education in any given area of life, is not something to be rewarded by our society. That is a shame, and its shameful that there are individuals out there whose sole purpose in life is to complicate or destroy the lives of those brave enough to try and help others.
    In my beginning, I remember being overwhelmed with products promoting the promise of explosive gains in a short time, only to learn that these were very harmful and unhealthy. This is one of the main reasons why, once I found Primordial, I stayed with Primordial. Not only could I help myself, but there were others there willing to help, or listen. Never once, since I began purchasing from this company, have I ever questioned any of the products I bought. I learned quickly that with Primordial, they told you what it is, has, how much of, and what it can and cant do. Quite extrordinary when you think of the hundreds of other companies out there who pump out products with misprinted labels or hidden ingrediants, and detrimental, with the goal of taking your money and nothing more.
    This is a sad day, and a day that i will remember for a very long time. Best of luck to Eric, and HTS, and the rest of the employees in their future endevours, and remember that although they can take all of your possessions, and your time, they cant take your heart and soul away from you, unless you let them.
    Goodbye Primordial Performance.
    -Bill

  8. You got a future customer here, never give up the dream Eric, I wish I would have found you guys sooner, regardless, I will be patiently waiting on your next product. You have my support! Thanks for everything!!

  9. Eric, I don’t know if it would help but I’d write a letter to the governor of Oregon stating all the facts and see if he could put some pressure on the FDA to return your products. They (FDA) are wasting tax money and hurting the local economy by forcing you to close your doors. Someone needs to look into their practices.

  10. I can’t help but think… if any of the agents dressed in body armor with testosterone pumping as they came to raid us was thinking… damn, I just killed my supply of Andro.

    At any rate, It was great working at primordial. Eric has a big vision and it’s always fun trying to change the world. All of my coworkers are great people who worked hard to keep our service, advice, inspiration, and products flowing and ground breaking. I had made a mockup of a classic old skateboarding shirt that said "Testosterone is not a crime" sitting in my office. I hope FDA liked it, It was the first thing that I saw when returning to the PP offices and it struck a big cord in my heart.

  11. very sad. Eric, you’re the man. I salute you in taking responsibility for what wasn’t met requirements (stupid as they are) but for describing the injustice done to your company, projects and yourself. I hope you will apply your extensive knowledge and expertise in other project, when time allows and get back to your feet. I’m sure many members in the alternative forum (thanks to HTS) would support and offer help in your future research in the ways that support might be offered.

    Thank you for the years of hard work, great products and great community!

  12. Quote:
    Originally Posted by heretostudy
    I would be lieing if I said I didn’t get extremely sad while reading this. This company has been an amazing experience for me, and the employees, Eric included, were regarded as family by me. I would have done anything in my power for them, as I feel they have always done the same for me.

    Good luck Eric. Know that you have a friend for life, an I mean that with absolute sincerity. You passion to take things to the next level (even to the point of turning you into a hermit for the past year) will inspire me for years to come. I hope this situation ends as well as it can for you. It is sad in a country facing so many problems, we can have the Novitzky arm of the FDA continue to waste tax payer dollars on a personal use item.

    All the best,

    John

    ^^^I second this statement…Eric if you need anything let me know bud and it was an honor to be a part of your dream

    -Ryan

  13. The FDA had guns drawn because that’s what they do. they use armed raids to justify their enormous budget. doesn’t matter that your products never hurt anyone or that there was absolutely no danger to any agent conducting the raid. in Canada, our oversight and enforcement agency is more stringent than the FDA even. Health Canada makes the FDA look like a libertarian freedom organization.

    i’m truly saddened to learn of this, and I wish that your next endeavour will still see the light of day. I, and many other forum members, will support your next company with my dollars if I am ever able to. thank you Eric

  14. this is really terrible eric, for you, all of PP and us
    the customers. i hope to see you back in the game
    in the future.

  15. Eric,
    This hurt my heart and also awakened my anger at the same time.

    To see anyone have their life’s work be railroaded by injustice is a travesty.
    Not to mention a company who worked to do so much for their customers.
    And the fact that you went through financial hardship and still thought about your customers first makes me admire you even more.

    Every product I ever bought from you guys worked well for me. And you are the ONLY company I can say that about. The EndoAmp even helped in the bedroom even though that was not one of the listed benefits. And the mood benefits of the Sustain formula were quite a nice touch. Would take me all day to list how beneficial all your products are.

    I wish this were the old days and we could pull something like the 47 Ronin, get our katanas and beat down the people who tried to tarnish your honor.

    Please keep us updated of any future ventures that you may bring about because I would be honored to be a customer than too.

    Anyway, I know you are going to spring back on your feet bigger and better. Just so sad that our world has people who would rather tear good people down than to spend energy actually righting wrongs.

    PP for me for eternity.

  16. Very sad indeed to see what happened to PP. When government agencies have free reign to do as they please, you have to wonder about our future as a democracy.

    I started using the Androseries a year ago, and although I was skeptical at first, I become a believer real quick after my first AndroHard run (my favorite product out there) and I’ve been a customer since. I really appreciate that you and PP created supplements that allowed the rest of us to improve our physique without having to lose sleep over whether we were going to suffer other health related consequences. That was always the case with other AAS and methylated junk out there. Thats why it infuriates me to see FDA sieze the Androseries that are safe and leaves all the methylated crap out there!!!

    The Andro series truly are and will always be the best of both worlds (safe and effective). I wish you best of luck in your future endevors and from your original post, it sounds like you have even better products in mind. You have a customer for life here (along with my friends that I’ve converted into PP fans as well).

  17. Since the products are still legal. What are the chances of a rebirth under a new name? Start small and do limited runs with a heavy reliance on pre-orders. No large raws to stock would limit exposure from government oppression.
    You should have our email addresses. I would order again if you did a small run in the future.
    Or is this too much wishful thinking?

  18. His mention of the other business, a ‘complete male hormone solution’ sounded like a real enticing operation for him and all of us. In the future.

  19. Four and a half years ago, I was working for a NYC ad agency, building websites for Fortune 500 clients. I resigned this position (which I’d been happy with for 8 years) to work for Primordial, and never regretted that choice despite the risk and the pay cut.

    I had no prior experience with the bodybuilding community, and must admit I had a little trepidation about the nature of the business, but the integrity with which Eric ran the business and the community spirit I saw on the forums won me over.

    All the negative stereotypes of bodybuilders that had infiltrated my thinking over the years were erased by the general excellence of the Primordial employees and customers.

    I’m appalled that the FDA is wasting my tax dollars to attack this honest small business, putting good people out of work and trashing the plans of thousands of customers. I haven’t been unemployed since I was a teenager in the 1980s, but now I’ll probably be filing for unemployment until I find another steady gig, as I expect some other employees will. So you can add that expense to the taxpayer money wasted on the investigation and over-the-top raid.

    I wish Eric, Matt, and everyone else great success in the future, but that’s just a formality; I know these bright, driven people will salve their wounds and move on to even bigger and better things, and that many of you will be anxiously waiting to see what they come up with next.

    Hopefully they’ll need a web developer for the next project. I’d jump at the chance to work with this great team again.

    – Peter Bergin
    Director of Web Development, Primordial Performance (for a few more days)

    Peter Bergin | LinkedIn

  20. Well you know they won’t actually test any PP products for fear of not finding anything illegal, so hopefully it will sit in some office until the gases build and bursts everywhere.

  21. Curious what company will pick up eric, seems stupid not to, he has an extensive knowledge or will he start a new venture?

  22. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jorsn
    I crapped in an old bottle of AHV3 and sent it to the FDA for testing.

    lol

  23. Peter,

    You are awesome and I really appreciated all the work you did for us off site and on site.

    When launching the first AndroSeries line all employees literally stayed up for 48 hours straight with minimal rest or snoozing.

    I remember Peter was off site but still with us throughout the crazy early morning hours.

    He played an integral role in keeping things smooth sailing for us and always kept a cool , calm demeanor.

    Some good people here…

    -Matt

  24. Quote:
    Originally Posted by thehuge908
    Curious what company will pick up eric, seems stupid not to, he has an extensive knowledge or will he start a new venture?

    I am confident Eric will find something new to capitalize on. He has the ambition to make just about any idea or project work.

    He also has the talent for product development to make just about any ingredient more appealing and effective than anyone out there.

    I’ll always be there for him whether I work for a different company or not, I will still help in anyway if I can and he needs it.

    This was the one company I could put my name behind and feel proud of representing them — I can’t sell myself out and work for just ‘any company’

    If I do not respect the products and the company, money wont even sway my integrity.

    -Matt

  25. Good luck Eric, both with your battle with the FDA and with any future business you create. I’ve been a happy customer for years now. I wish you and your crew well and hope things turn around very soon.

  26. Eric,

    How about selling LiquaVade or leasing the patent to another company to sell? It is a very good carrier that took a lot of research and development. I would think you could make a pretty penny on that alone.

  27. Damn I couldnt help but get a little emotional reading Eric’s post. This is terrible news on so many levels. Im relatively new to the prohormone world but everything I have found on the Andro series is awesome. The results are ive gotten are amazing and the safety of the products is what really counts. During my AH and AM cycles, I had confidence that I wasnt trashing my body just to look and feel good. I really felt I had a great program to build on. Such a sad time. I truly am going to miss the products and my heart goes out to Eric, Matt and everybody else involved in the PP business.

  28. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Broly
    Guess I was wrong… I thought the FDA’s sudden interest in PP might have been linked to the meningitis outbreak in the steroids used for lower back pain and the rising death toll from it. "Steroids" being the word they keyed in on as it’s all over the packaging and marketing of PP.

    here’s what i legitimately think. you call me crazy, but i dont really care. eric was on the verge of 2 things. a-side effect free steroids. b-his complete male hormonal solution. b could’ve changed the face of trt. trt = big pharma. fda workers = ex big pharma reps and it’s a just a huge kickback. many companies have produced superdrol for YEARS and have had NO issues with the law. plenty of companies are still producing halodrol and other methyl steroids and have received no issues. i truly believe it has to do with big pharma. yes, it’s a conspiracy. just my 2 cents though. and i hope the fda is can see this.

    FUUUUUUUUUKKKK YOUUUUU FDA. Fuck your bullshit gov. agency. if you really cared about the health of others, you would’ve invested in primordial. they made steroids safer. who the fuck else has done that. no one.

    so again. Fuck the fda, and everyone who works there. even the secretaries

  29. I haven’t posted on here in awhile. late response but I need to vent. I really cannot believe what I just read here. What a bunch of bullshit. I have been workingout for a while and stayed natural. The PP stuff were the only supplement’s that worked for me. Heck, even there topical PCT worked for me and it wasn’t even used as a pct. I just added it to my regular vitamin and supplement regimen. I just came on tonight to order two topical kits, then I see this shit. Instead of going after the shady companies, they come and break balls and ruin a good thing. I really am beyond pissed. Feel very bad for eric and all the PP boys. Great customer service, good products, and SAFE. what more could you ask for.

  30. Its all a money thing. Dont for once think the government actually cares about peoples well-being. They want to have total control over eveything that way its more money in their pockets

    I feel bad for PP. they were the first hormone i used and it did every bit of what they advertised. And i loved the forum here, felt like a very tight group of friends

  31. Quote:
    Originally Posted by J0e331
    Its all a money thing. Dont for once think the government actually cares about peoples well-being. They want to have total control over eveything that way its more money in their pockets

    I feel bad for PP. they were the first hormone i used and it did every bit of what they advertised. And i loved the forum here, felt like a very tight group of friends

    come over to swole source

    and yep, totally agree with you. just like i said, if the fda actually cared, they wouldve let the only company in the world to have made steroids safer live on. but they dont give 2 fucks about anyone. most gov agencies dont.

  32. I thought Eric’s announcement was very articulate, professional, informative, honest and comprehensive.

    The customer service offered by PP has been extraordinary!

    As far as tax $ being wasted – the govt is notorious for spending tax $ on BS operations and programs that further cripple the economy: think welfare folks

    I don’t know why the Feds have such a hard on for anabolics other than perhaps the gov doesn’t want a bunch of alpha-males running around.

    At any rate, all the best to the guys at PP.

  33. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Swole805
    I thought Eric’s announcement was very articulate, professional, informative, honest and comprehensive.

    The customer service offered by PP has been extraordinary!

    As far as tax $ being wasted – the govt is notorious for spending tax $ on BS operations and programs that further cripple the economy: think welfare folks

    I don’t know why the Feds have such a hard on for anabolics other than perhaps the gov doesn’t want a bunch of alpha-males running around.

    At any rate, all the best to the guys at PP.

    Sports…News demonizes it and the american public in general think they are evil. Its the same as any other designer drug.

  34. im so angry & frustrated with whats going on in our country.. big money is what runs it & the rich r gettig richer & poor getting poorer. this is just another example. i think nate is righ on wih that assumption, there are other companies STILL selling illegal products "legally".. PP has CREARLY stayed within the law as well as keeping us safe & healthy.. & they big pharma companies want to get their hands on Erics research im sure.. TRT & ED is the biggest money maker now & these PP products will change all of that..
    the evolution of PP roducts has been awesome to witness, being a loyal customer for about 5 yrs now. he ndoseries is awsome if u ask me, V-III is one of the best products ive ever used, OTC or phrmaceutical…

  35. Quote:
    Originally Posted by thehuge908
    Sports…News demonizes it and the american public in general think they are evil. Its the same as any other designer drug.

    At the same time, the American public wants to see a freak show — no one wants to see an all natural bodybuilder: no one cares! We want a freak on stage! Just as we want to watch athletes run faster, jump higher, hit harder, etc. We want a freak show!

    "Steroids are as American as apple pie!"

  36. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Swole805
    At the same time, the American public wants to see a freak show — no one wants to see an all natural bodybuilder: no one cares! We want a freak on stage! Just as we want to watch athletes run faster, jump higher, hit harder, etc. We want a freak show!

    "Steroids are as American as apple pie!"

    I think a select few want to see a freak show, I think bodybuilding competitions have gotten out of control, from the days of arnold to now drugged out freak beasts.

    Notice how bodybuilding shows never air on any major networks on prime times because no one really cares about them anymore. No one idols the new era of body builders.

    As far as sports its hit or miss with the performance enhancing.

  37. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Yolked
    im coming off a PCT in sept & oct with Torem, TRS kit(topical) & went right into using Phyto-Test with a TRS kit.. added a test booster with cordyceps(instead of Torem) & an additional dose of Tribulis Terrestris 2x/day… actually had to drop the TCF cuz im not single anymore & it was causing some issues with erections.. yeah, ive NEVER had an issue with that & it freaked me out! DAA Aspartate is known for that, i just recently found out.. but i feel great right now, off season workouts are great & sex drive is thru the roof.. i know the 5’8", 130 lb hottie in the bed next to me may have something to do with that… lol! having had alot of experience with real gear as well as pro-hormones & i feel like im on a light cycle of test.. definitely a boost from normal levels.. that Fenugreek & methoxy isoflavones work great, the cordyceps seems to have a positive effect & i know from the past use that Tribulis Terrestris helps with libido & gotta think its gonna help with test levels if its doing that.. always been told the best test booster is to have sex regularly… dont knkow if u can over do it? lol! think saw palmetto supposed to help with estro blocking & gonna add that to my concoction… its more or less what i use or have used for PCT i the past & may have to go with this for a while… do have a stash of AB & some "homemade" Dermacrine… wish i had some Andro Hard, my favorite of the AndroSeries… good luck!

    Thanks for the info, I’m new to testosterone boosters and was wondering if there were any one-shot products like andromass or androbulk out there, or will I have to mix multiple supplements to get the same results. I know there is no love for Bulk – Up or any of the Andro-factory products (for obvious reasons) … but are they the closest product to the Andromass / PP products? No idea where to find anything as PP was my only place to buy!

  38. Have there been any further developments? Just curious is there are any legal repercussions or what not (ie are andrseries products banned)

  39. So is there anyway you can still get customers topical Sustain Alpha Gel, and the Dermacrine Gel?

    These things aren’t illegal, and I’m sure that there are a lot of people who would love to still be able to purchase these some how, even some other way or something. These things are legal! Damn FDA!

  40. Haha how did I know somebody was going to say that. Yes, I am the FDA from Ontario Canada lol.

    No dude, I wish I worked for the FDA, and made FDA money but I dont.

    If I were the FDA I would be concentrating on the real criminals, not people who are not breaking the law. Reminds me of when the FDA assholes raided "Rawsome" the raw milk store in the U.S. and took all their raw milk that was improving people’s health.

    The reason I came on here, is that I went to nutraplanet, and orbit nutrition, where I’ve gone to get some of PP’s stuff in the past, and I seen their whole product line was out of stock. Then I came across this thread that they had been shut down.

    I am currently using the sustain alpha gel after finishing pct, and I feel better on the stuff than I do when I’m not, and my skin looks better.

    I liked the original Dermacrine in the past, but didnt like the old cream vehicle as it was too messy for me and didnt dry well.

    The new gel vehicle is awesome and dries super quick, and wanted to actually use those two on a new cycle to see if the Dermacrine helped with my anxiety like it did before.

    Bottom line this sucks and these products are legal, they should still be sold they are improving people health!

    These and some life extension supplements are the only supplements I buy aside from some chinese tonic herbs, and they have to take away the few really good things out there?

    We cant let this happen, there is nothing illegal going on here! There are other DHEA, pregnenolone, and resveratrol topicals being sold, why arent they seized?

  41. Like many others that have used supplements over a long period of time have stated in various threads, PP products ALWAYS worked. I have been planning out my next run and had intended to include a TRS V2.

    AndroDrive for me was a godsend. Oh how I wish I had stocked up before this catastrophe. I’m going to scour the net for some today and stock up if there’s any to be had.

    Over the past year or 2, I had some 1 on 1 communications with Eric, Matt, AJ, and a couple of others at PP. I got great personalized service that, comparatively far exceeded the amount of money I was spending.

    It goes without saying and it’s apparent that Eric is a smart guy and very dedicated to his craft. I think he was headed in a truly revolutionary direction with the current PP lineup and future innovations.

    The sad fact is that the FDA has the bottomless coffers funded by you n me. The only light I see at the end of this tunnel right now is that Eric owns his intellectual property. I hope that IP has value in some way that can help get these great products and great ideas back into the hands of consumers.

    I think we all realize that Eric has probably saved thousands of uneducated customers from liver damage and wasting their money on fake crap. If there is ANY justice to ever come from this, I hope Eric and the gang at PP end up right back in the supplement industry and get filthy rich doing it. Oh, and I hope they get their current stock back with a written apology from Eric Holder…..but I ain’t holding my breath.

  42. Holey assrape Buttman!!!

    It’s part of a sad final chapter to see people price gouging on the net. I know this has happened with other supps, especially right after some of the bans. But this is just ridiculous.

    Amazon.com: androdrive

  43. Please tell me you are still keeping the Iron Chef part of the forum! I don’t know what I’ll do without all of those great recipes!

    I LOVE YOU IRON CHEF!

  44. I’ve spoken with Eric this week and exchanged emails He’s following the motto of my boys…"Keep Moving Forward" (a reference to the "The Robinson’s" – The Movie)

    No worries for Eric, my friend. He’ll be okay.

    Salt

  45. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Saltwater
    I’ve spoken with Eric this week and exchanged emails He’s following the motto of my boys…"Keep Moving Forward" (a reference to the "The Robinson’s" – The Movie)

    No worries for Eric, my friend. He’ll be okay.

    Salt

    that is great to hear, thanks for the update.

  46. remember in 2010 like any scrawny kid i was looking for the next thing to help further gains until i met the great pp community. they have guided me to the right path. its sad that i promised myself that as soon as i turned 22 i was gonna start doing ph and that was gonna be pp only bc it is virtually side effect free in summer 2012 i had ran AH for 6 weeks bc i wouldnt have time to eat or train properly for awhile; did it mainly to maintain as alot was going on with me during that period of time and the results were astounding. i only did a 2 weeks pct as i was using their trsv2 stack i was getting to much boners to often. at times i would have to put ice packs or ice water. anyways this was when i was sold i decided pp would be my staple ph for any cycle started to stack up for a winter cycle till this happens. now i have nowhere to turn maybe forerunner anyways nothing will ever replace pp.
    my suggestion would be once they have the money just move to another country and stay away from the word steroid or testosterone. simply stick with the basic builds muscle and help recovery like the other ph does. also please create some sort of social media thing that will let us know about any new things maybe a Facebook page.
    anyways it was a great experienced being here even though after awhile i was not as active but nonetheless i have met great people and my knowledge of hormones and ph has increased bc of you guys.
    i have met great guys such as Swole, Coolazice, bigblackman, burlyman. thanks again for everything wish the pp company the best.

  47. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dalad9008
    i have met great guys such as Swole, Coolazice, bigblackman, burlyman. thanks again for everything wish the pp company the best.

    Close enough

    Really sad to see all these guys. So let down. Everyone had such high hopes! Damn it. It really is an immense shame. Zero companies out there ever competed for the top spot. It was always Primordial. Always.

  48. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Saltwater
    I’ve spoken with Eric this week and exchanged emails He’s following the motto of my boys…"Keep Moving Forward" (a reference to the "The Robinson’s" – The Movie)

    No worries for Eric, my friend. He’ll be okay.

    Salt

    Good to hear!

  49. We are just down to Phyto, Toco and Beta alanine. Only a couple weeks left guys, dont miss out on stocking up. MPA25 for 25% off these products.

  50. very sorry to hear this news….may you all move forward with hope for the future.
    in its day this forum was fantastic and in the world of cyber space we thrased out some great story lines…
    peace to you all…..ireland out

  51. Quick question – is this the end of toco 8?

    I’m from the UK and have been using it for the past couple of months on the recommendation of Jason Ferruggia, went online tonight to try and order some more but the UK website I use is out of stock.

    Thought it was strange so googled ‘primordial performance have gone out of business’ and found this thread.

    Sorry to hear the news guys and hope things work out for you.

  52. DUDE,
    Hit google shopping. There are a few Toco 8’s still out in the supply chain that can be had. Most people stocked up like me. I have 5 months worth in the fridge!:D

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